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 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: Green For All |
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I urge that there be a Peace Corps or Civilian Conservation
Corps like program to train young people to weatherize
homes and install solar panels. This would boost the
economy, help stop global warming, and give young people
a personal stake in greening the economy. |
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Whata Fool
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Green For All |
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tsbrueni@dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
| Quote: |
I urge that there be a Peace Corps or Civilian Conservation
Corps like program to train young people to weatherize
homes and install solar panels. This would boost the
economy, help stop global warming, and give young people
a personal stake in greening the economy.
|
And these young people are supposed to stampede
to the training places begging to help stop global warming
and greening the economy when I have trouble getting my
grass cut for $20 and it only takes half an hour.
Too bad there are no excess unemployed now, they
were all aborted more than 20 years ago. |
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john fernbach
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Green For All |
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On Nov 1, 3:08 am, tsbru...@dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
| Quote: |
I urge that there be a Peace Corps or Civilian Conservation
Corps like program to train young people to weatherize
homes and install solar panels. This would boost the
economy, help stop global warming, and give young people
a personal stake in greening the economy.
|
This is a great idea. In the United States, it would be a
particularly good idea for poor inner-city neighborhoods and poor
rural areas -- some mostly home to minority groups, some to poor
whites -- where jobs right now are scarce and unemployment among young
people is high.
Coincidentally - well, not so coincidentally - poor neighborhoods also
tend to have houses that are in poor repair, and that don't have much
insulation in the roofs and walls.
Training (and paying) young people in poor neighborhoods to fix up
energy-inefficient housing would be at least a "two-fer," if not a
"three-fer" (2 for 1, 3 for 1) benefit. It would (a) help the USA's
overall energy efficiency, thus fighting AGW and helping the country
become more independent of foreign oil, (b) help improve poor people's
housing, and (c) help poor kids get jobs and job skills. |
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john fernbach
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Green For All |
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On Nov 1, 3:17 am, Whata Fool <wh...@fool.ami> wrote:
| Quote: |
Too bad there are no excess unemployed now, they
were all aborted more than 20 years ago.
|
"Too bad there are no excess unemployed," WF?
Did you really mean to write this?  |
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CONVERT_Good_Republicans:
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Green For All |
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Another good idea might be to resurrect the old "Civilian Conservation
Corps' that President Franklin Roosevelt established during the
depression in the 1930s.
It hired not only young people, but also adults to do essential
conservation work - mostly tree planting in the national forests. And
it reduced unemployment rates and gave people hope at a time when not
much else in the economy seemed to be working very well.
A third good idea: A "G.I. Bill for Displaced Coal Miners and Oil
Field Workers," resembling the first G.I Bill that the US government
established for demobilized soldiers and sailors following World War
II.
The fear at the time was that as the US started to demobilize its
massive military force - 10 million men (mostly, and a few women) that
had been mobilized to fight WW II -- the returning veterans would
swamp the civilian job market, driving down wages, driving up
unemployment, and generally wrecking the economy.
So what the government did was to offer to pay returning soldiers &
sailors to return to school - college, trade school, whatever -- to
get better job skills before reentering the labor force. More than a
million former GIs and sailors took advantage of the program, and it
helped many of them get good jobs afterwards. It also upgraded the
skills of the American labor force and headed off postwar unemployment
problems.
We need something similar for workers in CO2-spewing industries if
we're going to start phasing out these industries to curb greenhouse
emissions leading to climate change. We shouldn't want to ruin the
nation's coal miners, oil field workers, auto workers in SUV factories
etc. etc. as we make a transition to a more climate-friendly
economy.
All of us will benefit if these people can maintain decent income
levels, learn new job skills for non-CO2 dependent industries, and
avoid going onto the welfare rolls. And a "GI Bill" for these
displaced workers would obviously be good for the workers, too, and
would make it easier for at least some of them to accept the
transition away from fossil fuels to more sustainable sources of
energy. |
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CONVERT_Good_Republicans:
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Green For All |
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On Nov 1, 12:09 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote:
Do you honestly believe that inner city youth would consider doing
| Quote: |
work like that today for the sake of AGW people who have yet to prove
anything, divorce them from their drug habits and their friends, have them
live a PC life of weight control, no smoking or other PC don'ts? LOL
|
James - I've had a little experience, not much, with "inner city
youth," and I honestly do think some would like to get out of the
rather pointless and destructive drug scene, if some more attractive
and more meaningful way of life presents itself.
Some kids, of course, are stuck in the drug scene. And just as
importantly, all too many of them pretty heavily committed to SELLING
rather than using drugs, so that they can scrape together enough money
for an apparently respectable, nice, middle-class lifestyle.
And some people of all backgrounds, but more among the poor and the
despairing than among the middle class and hopeful, do fall into
destructive substance abuse.
| Quote: |
I find it amusing that you have a solution which requires the backs of the
poor, unfortunates and youths who have other plans for their careers while
people like you are the "idea" men.
|
James - Do you notice any inner contradictions in what you've just
written in the last 2 paragraphs?
QUOTE 1: "Do you honestly believe that inner city youth would
consider doing
| Quote: |
work like that today for the sake of AGW people who have yet to prove
anything, divorce them from their drug habits and their friends, have them
live a PC life of weight control, no smoking or other PC don'ts? LOL"
|
QUOTE 2: "I find it amusing that you have a solution which requires
the backs of the
| Quote: |
poor, unfortunates and youths who have other plans for their careers ..."
|
There's a third problem with your approach, too, James.
To wit: whether AGW is real or not - which I think it is, but
regardless of whether it is -- there are obvious economic benefits to
repairing leaky roofs and badly fitting windows and inadequate
insulation in inner city neighborhoods ( and in poor rural areas
inhabited largely by poor American whites, too.)
If people living in a place with badly kept up, energy-inefficient
housing can fix up their physical surroundings and make them more
energy-efficient, they WIN. They WIN in terms of more comfort, in
terms of lower energy bills -- REGARDLESS of what happens to the
Greenland glaciers or the Australian drought or the prevalence of
drought and flooding in West Africa.
Face it, James - This is a "two-fer' or a "three-fer." It's just a
good idea in human terms and in economic terms, even in the absence of
AGW.
But the issue of AGW, of course, makes it even more attractive. |
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James
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Green For All |
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"john fernbach" <fernbach1948@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1193925409.404102.244290@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
On Nov 1, 3:08 am, tsbru...@dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
I urge that there be a Peace Corps or Civilian Conservation
Corps like program to train young people to weatherize
homes and install solar panels. This would boost the
economy, help stop global warming, and give young people
a personal stake in greening the economy.
This is a great idea. In the United States, it would be a
particularly good idea for poor inner-city neighborhoods and poor
rural areas -- some mostly home to minority groups, some to poor
whites -- where jobs right now are scarce and unemployment among young
people is high.
Coincidentally - well, not so coincidentally - poor neighborhoods also
tend to have houses that are in poor repair, and that don't have much
insulation in the roofs and walls.
Training (and paying) young people in poor neighborhoods to fix up
energy-inefficient housing would be at least a "two-fer," if not a
"three-fer" (2 for 1, 3 for 1) benefit. It would (a) help the USA's
overall energy efficiency, thus fighting AGW and helping the country
become more independent of foreign oil, (b) help improve poor people's
housing, and (c) help poor kids get jobs and job skills.
|
The CCC was an economic program that required only a strong back. It did
nothing for their education wants. It was merely a way to get some money
circulating again when they sent some home. We no longer have that kind of
spirit. Do you honestly believe that inner city youth would consider doing
work like that today for the sake of AGW people who have yet to prove
anything, divorce them from their drug habits and their friends, have them
live a PC life of weight control, no smoking or other PC don'ts? LOL
I find it amusing that you have a solution which requires the backs of the
poor, unfortunates and youths who have other plans for their careers while
people like you are the "idea" men. You'll notice that Habitats for Humanity
relies on working people with their hearts in the right place and not some
nebulous theory. |
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James
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Green For All |
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|
"CONVERT_Good_Republicans: BUILD_Green_Majority" <fernbach2000@yahoo.com>
wrote in message
news:1193931934.048825.164250@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
On Nov 1, 12:09 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote:
Do you honestly believe that inner city youth would consider doing
work like that today for the sake of AGW people who have yet to prove
anything, divorce them from their drug habits and their friends, have
them
live a PC life of weight control, no smoking or other PC don'ts? LOL
James - I've had a little experience, not much, with "inner city
youth," and I honestly do think some would like to get out of the
rather pointless and destructive drug scene, if some more attractive
and more meaningful way of life presents itself.
Some kids, of course, are stuck in the drug scene. And just as
importantly, all too many of them pretty heavily committed to SELLING
rather than using drugs, so that they can scrape together enough money
for an apparently respectable, nice, middle-class lifestyle.
And some people of all backgrounds, but more among the poor and the
despairing than among the middle class and hopeful, do fall into
destructive substance abuse.
|
I have to disagree with most of what you said about inner city youth but
agree too but there are many ways to sever themselves from the constant
misery and eking out a living among gangs, drugs etc.
There are even programs like the domestic peace corps (if they still have
it), joining the military and learning a skill, even moving from the area
and sweeping up with the hope of advancing up a ladder. I had a cousin who
did just that and now he is the head machinist at that company. But, I
digress. The kinds of folks who would like to do any of those things may
have a sense of family and would just feel guilty leaving. The gangs and the
drugs seem to be quite destructive for a youth who doesn't see his life
going anywhere but he does it out of boredom I suppose.
JMHO
| Quote: |
I find it amusing that you have a solution which requires the backs of
the
poor, unfortunates and youths who have other plans for their careers
while
people like you are the "idea" men.
James - Do you notice any inner contradictions in what you've just
written in the last 2 paragraphs?
QUOTE 1: "Do you honestly believe that inner city youth would
consider doing
work like that today for the sake of AGW people who have yet to prove
anything, divorce them from their drug habits and their friends, have
them
live a PC life of weight control, no smoking or other PC don'ts? LOL"
|
I mentioned the worst of those folks but yes, you find some good ones who
miight see a way out of their situation but I won't speculate.
| Quote: |
QUOTE 2: "I find it amusing that you have a solution which requires
the backs of the
poor, unfortunates and youths who have other plans for their careers ..."
|
| Quote: |
There's a third problem with your approach, too, James.
To wit: whether AGW is real or not - which I think it is, but
regardless of whether it is -- there are obvious economic benefits to
repairing leaky roofs and badly fitting windows and inadequate
insulation in inner city neighborhoods ( and in poor rural areas
inhabited largely by poor American whites, too.)
If people living in a place with badly kept up, energy-inefficient
housing can fix up their physical surroundings and make them more
energy-efficient, they WIN. They WIN in terms of more comfort, in
terms of lower energy bills -- REGARDLESS of what happens to the
Greenland glaciers or the Australian drought or the prevalence of
drought and flooding in West Africa.
Face it, James - This is a "two-fer' or a "three-fer." It's just a
good idea in human terms and in economic terms, even in the absence of
AGW.
|
That sort of goes without saying and I agree but the reality of that
happening is remote I believe.
| Quote: |
But the issue of AGW, of course, makes it even more attractive.
|
It only makes sense to me for the financial reasons you mentioned. Not AGW,
because I don't believe there is any such thing. Warming right now seems to
be real but blaming humans for it doesn't fly in my book. |
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Tim Bruening
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Green For All |
|
|
Whata Fool wrote:
| Quote: |
tsbrueni@dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
I urge that there be a Peace Corps or Civilian Conservation
Corps like program to train young people to weatherize
homes and install solar panels. This would boost the
economy, help stop global warming, and give young people
a personal stake in greening the economy.
And these young people are supposed to stampede
to the training places begging to help stop global warming
and greening the economy when I have trouble getting my
grass cut for $20 and it only takes half an hour.
Too bad there are no excess unemployed now, they
were all aborted more than 20 years ago.
|
The last I heard, the unemployment rate was in the high 4s, so there
should be enough for the "Green For All" program. Also, we could use
prisoners and illegal immigrants. |
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Tim Bruening
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Green For All |
|
|
CONVERT_Good_Republicans: BUILD_Green_Majority wrote:
| Quote: |
Another good idea might be to resurrect the old "Civilian Conservation
Corps' that President Franklin Roosevelt established during the
depression in the 1930s.
It hired not only young people, but also adults to do essential
conservation work - mostly tree planting in the national forests. And
it reduced unemployment rates and gave people hope at a time when not
much else in the economy seemed to be working very well.
A third good idea: A "G.I. Bill for Displaced Coal Miners and Oil
Field Workers," resembling the first G.I Bill that the US government
established for demobilized soldiers and sailors following World War
II.
The fear at the time was that as the US started to demobilize its
massive military force - 10 million men (mostly, and a few women) that
had been mobilized to fight WW II -- the returning veterans would
swamp the civilian job market, driving down wages, driving up
unemployment, and generally wrecking the economy.
So what the government did was to offer to pay returning soldiers &
sailors to return to school - college, trade school, whatever -- to
get better job skills before reentering the labor force. More than a
million former GIs and sailors took advantage of the program, and it
helped many of them get good jobs afterwards. It also upgraded the
skills of the American labor force and headed off postwar unemployment
problems.
We need something similar for workers in CO2-spewing industries if
we're going to start phasing out these industries to curb greenhouse
emissions leading to climate change. We shouldn't want to ruin the
nation's coal miners, oil field workers, auto workers in SUV factories
etc. etc. as we make a transition to a more climate-friendly
economy.
All of us will benefit if these people can maintain decent income
levels, learn new job skills for non-CO2 dependent industries, and
avoid going onto the welfare rolls. And a "GI Bill" for these
displaced workers would obviously be good for the workers, too, and
would make it easier for at least some of them to accept the
transition away from fossil fuels to more sustainable sources of
energy.
|
We should also have an economic conversion program to convert fossil fuel
companies to alternative energy companies, and also ask the Europeans and
Japanese (who have much higher fuel efficiency standards than we do) to
provide technical assistance to our car companies to help them boost the
fuel efficiency of their cars (since they keep moaning about the
difficulty of increasing fuel efficiency). |
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Tim Bruening
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Green For All |
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|
James wrote:
| Quote: |
"john fernbach" <fernbach1948@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1193925409.404102.244290@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 1, 3:08 am, tsbru...@dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
I urge that there be a Peace Corps or Civilian Conservation
Corps like program to train young people to weatherize
homes and install solar panels. This would boost the
economy, help stop global warming, and give young people
a personal stake in greening the economy.
This is a great idea. In the United States, it would be a
particularly good idea for poor inner-city neighborhoods and poor
rural areas -- some mostly home to minority groups, some to poor
whites -- where jobs right now are scarce and unemployment among young
people is high.
Coincidentally - well, not so coincidentally - poor neighborhoods also
tend to have houses that are in poor repair, and that don't have much
insulation in the roofs and walls.
Training (and paying) young people in poor neighborhoods to fix up
energy-inefficient housing would be at least a "two-fer," if not a
"three-fer" (2 for 1, 3 for 1) benefit. It would (a) help the USA's
overall energy efficiency, thus fighting AGW and helping the country
become more independent of foreign oil, (b) help improve poor people's
housing, and (c) help poor kids get jobs and job skills.
The CCC was an economic program that required only a strong back. It did
nothing for their education wants. It was merely a way to get some money
circulating again when they sent some home. We no longer have that kind of
spirit. Do you honestly believe that inner city youth would consider doing
work like that today for the sake of AGW people who have yet to prove
anything, divorce them from their drug habits and their friends, have them
live a PC life of weight control, no smoking or other PC don'ts? LOL
I find it amusing that you have a solution which requires the backs of the
poor, unfortunates and youths who have other plans for their careers while
people like you are the "idea" men. You'll notice that Habitats for Humanity
relies on working people with their hearts in the right place and not some
nebulous theory.
|
Habitats For Humanity could weatherize homes and install solar panels. |
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Dan Bloomquist
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Whata Fool
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Green For All |
|
|
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
| Quote: |
Whata Fool wrote:
tsbrueni@dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
I urge that there be a Peace Corps or Civilian Conservation
Corps like program to train young people to weatherize
homes and install solar panels. This would boost the
economy, help stop global warming, and give young people
a personal stake in greening the economy.
And these young people are supposed to stampede
to the training places begging to help stop global warming
and greening the economy when I have trouble getting my
grass cut for $20 and it only takes half an hour.
Too bad there are no excess unemployed now, they
were all aborted more than 20 years ago.
The last I heard, the unemployment rate was in the high 4s, so there
should be enough for the "Green For All" program.
|
Don't think that any unemployment under 5 percent means
there are available workers (willing, able, and employable).
There will always be 3 percent, that results from those
changing jobs and take 4 or 5 weeks to find another job.
| Quote: |
Also, we could use prisoners and illegal immigrants.
|
Too bad _WE_ are not in charge, huh, we could
really make a difference. |
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Tim Bruening
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: Green For All |
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|
A group of activists called "Green For All" (greenforall.org) has
started a campaign to get Congress to allocate $125 million to train
30,000 young people a year in green trades such as weatherizing homes
and installing solar panels (both jobs that can't be outsourced
overseas, since you can't ship a house to China to be outfitted with
insulation and solar panels!), thus boosting both the environment and
the economy simultaneously!
It started with one Van Jones, an Afro-American social and environmental
activist who leads the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights in Oakland.
He was tired of oil companies stampeding poor people into opposing
environmental initiatives, so he started a crusade to help
underprivileged blacks and other disadvantaged communities understand
that efforts to green America could create jobs for them. To that end,
Jones' group teamed up with an electrical union to create the Oakland
Apollo Alliance, which helped raised $250,000 from the city government
to create a training program that will teach young Oaklanders how to
weatherize homes and install solar panels. Van Jones believes that "The
green economy has the power to deliver new sources of work, wealth and
health to low income people-while honoring the Earth. If you can do
that, you just wiped out a whole bunch of problems. We can make what is
good for poor black kids good for the polar bears and good for the
country". |
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Whata Fool
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: Green For All |
|
|
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
| Quote: |
A group of activists called "Green For All" (greenforall.org) has
started a campaign to get Congress to allocate $125 million to train
30,000 young people a year in green trades such as weatherizing homes
and installing solar panels (both jobs that can't be outsourced
overseas, since you can't ship a house to China to be outfitted with
insulation and solar panels!), thus boosting both the environment and
the economy simultaneously!
It started with one Van Jones, an Afro-American social and environmental
activist who leads the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights in Oakland.
He was tired of oil companies stampeding poor people into opposing
environmental initiatives, so he started a crusade to help
underprivileged blacks and other disadvantaged communities understand
that efforts to green America could create jobs for them. To that end,
Jones' group teamed up with an electrical union to create the Oakland
Apollo Alliance, which helped raised $250,000 from the city government
to create a training program that will teach young Oaklanders how to
weatherize homes and install solar panels. Van Jones believes that "The
green economy has the power to deliver new sources of work, wealth and
health to low income people-while honoring the Earth. If you can do
that, you just wiped out a whole bunch of problems. We can make what is
good for poor black kids good for the polar bears and good for the
country".
|
Do you mean there is anybody 16 or over that can't read
and follow the instructions on the package the weather stripping
comes in?
Who is going to pay for the solar panels and the materials
to weatherize?
I hope it works, but if McDonald's has trouble getting help
to even show up for work, and the restaurant is across from a
big high school, there must not be many young people wanting
a job.
The hope is that the solar cell paint will improve enough
that it becomes cost effective in places other than the sun belt.
And it would be great if the technology lightweight materials
begin to be mass produced and affordable.
But solar thermal is the thing that is affordable and effective
while the sun shines, just using air collectors, either just windowed
boxes with the inside back painted black or covered with black
chrome can be built by any carpenter, but I don't think industry
has made any of the air doors and automatic controls to make
even the air collectors easy to use and effective.
One guidance device is available for movable collectors,
which can double the amount of energy collected, the problem
still seems to be the mount, neighbors who complain if the
collectors are not hidden from view, and the impossibility of
installing solar collectors on some homes because of trees
or other sun shielding structures.
Anything that is done should be for the right reason,
reducing dependence on oil, reducing energy costs,
and providing the means to use alternate energy. |
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